12 April, 2006

BS: Romans 8:4, References - 2006.04.14 19:01 PDT

4/14 - Milly and Kevin added some stuff to the bottom.

---

I am going to probably repeat some of the references everyone else has found in this notes post. I will not move them over to the main post. I am just going to be bringing them across from the Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge as I find them.

My notes will not be things I believe, but things I am brainstorming. I will often write things in this kind of brainstorming that are obviously false, but writing them frees me to think more openly. I worry about the errors later. This is a bible study, not a paper. Got to think! :-)

----

Gal 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
- Interesting. The Spirit will bear these things in His own. Those who are Christ's have simply crucified the flesh.

Eph 5:26, 27
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
- The church will be cleansed by the Word. What is of interest here is that gracists might say that the church "positionally" clean right now, when the verse might really mean that the church is to be "really" clean.

Col 1:22
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
- No action here on our part.

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
- Future tense. Ignore.

Jud 1:24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
- Future.

Rev 14:5
And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
- Future.

Rom 8:1
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
- Ah. I am not positive, but I seem to recall being taught the Greek here means that we "do" walk in the Spirit. Walking in the flesh is not a condition here, but a statement of fact.

--- Now to pick up the pace a little bit. Let's find some contradictory verses.

It's bed time, so it will have to wait until tomorrow (and/or until more comments!) I will come back looking for verses that say:
1) That our works matter, and that the law still matters.
2) That our works don't matter, and that the law does not matter any more.

Then I will look for verses tied to those verses.

Like I said, not everyone likes to look at things this way. I like to look for everything in the bible that disagrees with my initial position. Sometimes the search is fruitless ;-O, but it's always valuable. There's nothing like the joy of seeing how two verses that seem to oppose each other really play together perfectly.

From lunch 4/13 -
Color code:Travis, Danny Kaye, Milly (and hubby), codepoke, DugALug, Japhy

James 2:18 (NIV)18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do
- I see this as saying that deeds/works are a legitimate litmus of true faith, but what do I know?

Gal 5:19,22-26
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness... In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
- In contrasting the "works" of the flesh with the "fruit" of the Spirit, Paul is showing how the law exists because of the desires of the flesh, but "there is no law" against that which is driven by the Spirit because the Spirit produces only good fruit.

Col 1:21-23a
And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard.
- Paul seems to be telling them that, while Jesus's sacrifice on the cross has made life in the Spirit possible for them, they must "follow the Spirit". Jesus said that himself: "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me." (Mark 8:34) We must follow, not just stand by and watch.

Mark 1:17 (NKJV)
17 Then Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”

Philippians 3:14 (NKJV)
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

- Jesus uses the term 'follow'. Paul uses the term 'Press'. These are not the words of a spectator: these are words of action. I believe the Holy Spirit quicken us to action. Japhy quotes Galations about the works of the flesh and fruit of the Spirit. I think this is interesting because I think this scripture shows us that 'good works' are the biproduct of a Spirit-filled life. What we do by our own effort cannot be clean or 'good'.

This is what Isiah said:
Isaiah 64:6 (NKJV)
6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
- If we live by the Spirit, good works will follow us and the Law will be of no matter. If we live by the flesh, we will never be able to live up to the Standard that God has set in the law.

Acts 23:1-5
1Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day." 2At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. 3Then Paul said to him, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!"

4Those who were standing near Paul said, "You dare to insult God's high priest?" 5Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people."

James 4:10-13 (New International Version)

11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?



---

I'm back.

I feel very much like the Shulamite. I have been so busy, I have not been able to attend my own bible study party! My apologies, and great stuff in my absence.

Let me just add a couple more references. The ones here are plenty, but in looking at them a couple more came up.

Hbr 11:31

By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

- I love this. Rahab's works saved her by faith. Perfectly inscrutable. I also enjoy that it does not call her the former harlot, Rahab.

Jam 2:25

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

- It's such a cool story, she gets mentioned repeatedly. :-)

Mat 7:17

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

- The fruit does not make the tree, the tree makes the fruit.

2Cor 6:16 - 2Cor 7:1

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

- Wow. I don't know that much can be added to this.

Tit 2:11-14

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

- Then again....

---

Now for the other side

Rom 3:27 & 28

Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

- Without is a very strong word.

Rom 9:31 & 32

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that Stumblingstone;

- Wow. Those who attempt to please God by righteously following a righteous law use Christ wrongly. Christ is to be the Cornerstone and Foundation of all our works and all our life. But we are are moving about on our own, we are not founded on the Cornerstone. Instead, when we are going about in our own, we come to the Cornerstone and He is made a Stumblingstone to us.


Gal 2:16 & 19-21

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ... For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

- I have to tell about this. I heard a sermon on this that stuck with me across the years. It says we are justified by "the faith of Jesus Christ". The preacher made great work of pointing out that we are saved by Jesus Christ's faith, and not by our own. Too bad that thought is based entirely on the fact that the preacher did not understand King James English. I guess the Greek says "faith in Jesus Christ" because every other version I have and the commentators all avoid that thought.

Anyway.

Gal 3:2 & 5

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

- There is nothing left to chance here. The works of the law are clearly unable to meet our need in coming to the Father.

Gal 5:4 & 5

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

- This verse is the perfect foil to Romans 8:4. I think my research may be over.

7 comments:

DugALug said...

James 2:18 (NIV)

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do


I see this as saying that deeds/works are a legitimate litmus of true faith, but what do I know?

-Doug

japhy said...

When the excerpts from Galatians and Colossians are given context, they show that the responsibility to live up to our potential "life in the Spirit" is on our shoulders.

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness... In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
(Gal 5:19,22-26)


In contrasting the "works" of the flesh with the "fruit" of the Spirit, Paul is showing how the law exists because of the desires of the flesh, but "there is no law" against that which is driven by the Spirit because the Spirit produces only good fruit.

And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard.
(Col 1:21-23a)


Paul seems to be telling them that, while Jesus's sacrifice on the cross has made life in the Spirit possible for them, they must "follow the Spirit". Jesus said that himself: "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me." (Mark 8:34) We must follow, not just stand by and watch.

DugALug said...

Mark 1:17 (NKJV)

17 Then Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”



Philippians 3:14 (NKJV)

14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


Jesus uses the term 'follow'. Paul uses the term 'Press'. These are not the words of a spectator: these are words of action. I believe the Holy Spirit quicken us to action.

Japhy quotes Galations about the works of the flesh and fruit of the Spirit. I think this is interesting because I think this scripture shows us that 'good works' are the biproduct of a Spirit-filled life. What we do by our own effort cannot be clean or 'good'. This is what Isiah said:

Isaiah 64:6 (NKJV)

6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


If we live by the Spirit, good works will follow us and the Law will be of no matter. If we live by the flesh, we will never be able to live up to the Standard that God has set in the law.

-Doug

japhy said...

Doug, I agree with you too.

I've heard contention between "works" and "faith" as far as salvation is concerned. There's one side that says faith in Christ is all that's needed (and they base this on a few lines from Paul's letters) and another side that says faith alone is not enough.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is the oft-quoted excerpt: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast." Harping on this, they neglect so many other things written by Paul and others (e.g. James 2:14-17), as well as the teachings of Jesus himself (e.g. Matthew 25:31-46, "whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me").

But moreso, they confuse the meaning of Paul's words. It is not by works that we are saved, it is through faith. That faith then works in and through us to produce good works, by which we justify the grace and salvation given us by Christ's sacrifice.

I think we can all agree that if we are living as Christians, it is because we are united in our faith in Christ and our desire to live as Christ did: therefore, let us do works, as Jesus did, in his name, to the glory of God.

Amen.

Time for lunch.

Milly said...

Acts 23:1-10 (New International Version)


Acts 23:1-5

1Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day." 2At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. 3Then Paul said to him, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!"

4Those who were standing near Paul said, "You dare to insult God's high priest?"
5Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people."

Milly said...

James 4:10-13 (New International Version)

11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Danny Kaye said...

CAUTION: UNRELATED TOPIC COMING UP!!!

Hey Codepoke, Since I don't have an email address for you, this is the only way I can let you know that I started that "Perfect Church" topic you mentioned a few weeks ago.

Thanks for planting the seed!