14 July, 2006

Leadership: Submission and ???

The next word after "Submission" in these discussions is always, "Authority." And over the last week, I finished quite a competent little post whose title ended in just that word. Well, almost finished. Actually, I got right to the end, and discovered I'd been wrong all along.

The truth hit me over the head like a chocolate orange (you know the gems - you smack the little orange on a table or some such, and it breaks into a dozen wonderful little slices of orangy chocolate?) In a surprising flash revelation, with just a hint of noggin ache, I saw a dozen ways "authority" misses the target outright.

It really made for quite an impatient day as I sat at work, and in bible study, and in a car with my son, and at lunch and a handful of other places, wishing all the while I could sit down and tell you all about it. I'm really unhappy that I have not had the time to write as much as I'd like. And my busyness comes at just the time that I really need the sincere distraction of typing something joyful and amusing.

Ah well.

But, here I am now, so I may as well get on and start enjoying the moment!

I wrote my poor, doomed little post on this passage:
Luke 22
24 A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This little speech of our Lord's actually appears in all three of the synoptics. Matthew, Peter (Mark) and Luke all devote a number of verses to it. I knew as I typed that I was nattering on about something that Jesus and three of his best biographers agreed was important. And it's easy to natter on about authority using this passage, because Jesus directly uses the word and says the equivalent of "Bad pastor! Naughty, naughty pastor, claiming authority over your flock like that. Off to bed with you, after you finish cleaning up your whole congregation's dinner plates and sweeping up the crumbs and giving them to the poor somewhere."

The only problem with that little conceit is that it leaves off the whole "Oh, and judge the 12 tribes of Israel while you are at it" thingy that He said there at the end.

Nattering while nagging myself with niggling notions that I've not nailed the nuance of a narrative drove me nutty. So, I was greatly relieved when I finally made it down to commenting on verses 29 and 30. Looking at the verses that were distracting me let me scratch that itch.

No one could have been more surprised than I, though, when they came clear for me. I look at a passage for nigh unto thirty years, and the last thing I expect is to suddenly see something completely new. The bible is truly a joy.

Leaders in the church are not to take authority over it's members; leaders are to judge them.

At first, I felt much like you probably do now. That's rather a step up in the brutality scale, isn't it? My mind shied away from such a stern word, but there it was in black and white. ...judging the twelve tribes of Israel

Oh, I know. Everyone thinks this is all for another dispensation, but think it about it for a second. It really isn't. There was no church when Jesus said these words, and after Jesus had risen again Paul went on a great deal about how the church is spiritual Israel. The kingdom of God is here now, and has been since the Spirit fell down on those brothers and sisters in the upper room two millenia ago. These disciples were eventually given the keys to the kingdom, and they were to bind and loose things on earth as God willed in heaven.

They exercised judgement in the kingdom of God, exactly as Jesus said they would.

Do you want some examples of leaders in the church judging?

1 Tim 1:20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

Acts 5: 3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!" 5 When he heard these words, Ananias dropped dead, and a great fear came on all who heard. 6 The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him. 7 There was an interval of about three hours; then his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 "Tell me," Peter asked her, "did you sell the field for this price?" "Yes," she said, "for that price." 9 Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!" 10 Instantly she dropped dead at his feet.

1 Cor 5: 3 For though absent in body but present in spirit, I have already decided about him who has done this thing as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, along with my spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.

2 Thess 3:14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed.

2 Cor 13: 2 I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others,

Now those are not the most fun passages the bible has to offer, but they are silent on something very profound. Those are passages that speak of discipline being exercised on people who walk unworthy of their calling. But I cannot think of any passages in which authority is exercised. And that makes sense, since Jesus goes out of His way to teach His disciples not to do so! Judgement I see, but authority is rebuked as strongly as it is encouraged.

Let me see if I can draw a picture of the difference between judgement and authority. Let's do a roleplay with two daddy's named Judgement and Authority, and a little boy.

The little boy is in the kitchen, ice cream is in the freezer and trouble is on the horizon. Each of our daddy's looks at the little boy and says, "I'm leaving now, but don't touch the ice cream." The little boy asks, "Why, Daddy?"

Judgement answers, "I want you to enjoy the ice cream, and I want you to enjoy your dinner too. To do that, you have to eat them in the right order, so you may have no ice cream until after dinner."

Authority answers, "Didn't I say I'm leaving? I'm your father and I told you not to touch the ice cream, so don't touch it. Hush now, and do what I say."

Of course, little boys being little boys, he does what little boys do and he snatches an ice cream. Daddy's being daddy's, though, they each catch the little boy red-handed and chocolate-lipped.

Judgement says, "I see you didn't really want dinner. You wanted ice cream, instead. But you shouldn't eat sugar without some real food in your stomach too, so you had best wash the rest of your ice cream down the drain. And since you didn't want dinner, you can go to bed without it tonight."

Authority says, "I thought I told you no ice cream! I'm here to grow you into a righteous man, so when I talk, you'd better listen, and you'd better do what I say! [Insert tedious lecture here.]"

Our two daddy's, Judgement and Authority, each speak from equal authority, but Judgement bases his power on sound fact and fairness. Authority bases his power on his role and good intentions toward the boy. Authority reminds the little boy that he is acting in the boy's best interests, and that he is in fact the boy's "Benefactor". Jesus did not like that, as you will recall. Judgement simply assesses the facts, draws a teaching conclusion, and enforces it.

You might know Judgement's style as, "Speak softly, and carry a big stick."

Very little wiser has ever been said by uninspired men.

Authority tends to have a bad case of Verbal Diarrhea. Everything authority does seems to be attended with a stern lecture, and lots of reminders of how important submission is. Which is really quite funny, because a lot of what authority says is absolutely true. It's almost all true. Especially the part about submission.

The title of this post should be "Leadership: Submission and Judgement". The only reason it isn't is because that would have spoiled the only little bit of surprise I really had. Submission is still in the title, though, because we need submission. We need the discipline of submitting, and we need the blessings that we gain from those in authority over us.

Whether our rulers rule with Authority or Judgement, and we know which one is more pleasant, it is still our business to submit to them. I would only add that we should submit to them with judgement. No judgement is required in submitting to the Lord Jesus, but even if you could submit to Charles Haddon Spurgeon (one of my heroes - where everyone else loves CS Lewis, I love Spurgeon - for purposes of this example you could trust him. :-) Even if you could submit to Mr. Spurgeon himself (I love that he was Mr. Spurgeon - not pastor Spurgeon, or Reverend Spurgeon, or something even more hideous), you had best do it with judgement. We are to submit one to another, but not to be mindlessly enslaved one to another.

So, to summarize the whole leadership series (for those who might have forgotten parts of it, since I started it way back in May)

Leadership is the opposite of denial. Leadership sees problems and takes meaningful steps to correct them while it is still early enough. Leaders need to know when to act, but they also need to know when to be patient and encourage confused people. Older leaders are better at this. They have a better eye for when someone needs to jump in and do something, and when everyone needs to just chill and let a situation work itself out. They know this stuff because they have been through some high water in their lives. They know that sometimes it's the still waters that should scare you, and sometimes thick frothing rapids are nothing but a little tantrum.

Leaders should care more about people than doctrine, and though they should be able to teach sound doctrine, they should know it well enough to teach it for the purpose of building character. They should know that it is a life pattern of good works that shows a living faith in Christ, much more than having all the creeds down pat.

To this end, it is good to make sure that your senior leaders are just that, seniors. When your leaders are all young and highly gifted, everyone is at risk. The gifts are a great blessing to the church, but they are also a destabilizing influence. Young, gifted men are as dangerous as they are rewarding to have in leadership. Give them responsibility, but not all at once. Let them grow into it a bit. Let them grow slowly.

And finally, leaders should lead by judgement, not by authority.

26 comments:

Andreia said...

Nattering while nagging myself with niggling notions that I've not nailed the nuance of a narrative drove me nutty

Nice!

Maeghan said...

Nattering while nagging myself with niggling notions that I've not nailed the nuance of a narrative drove me nutty.

Neat!

Maeghan said...

At first, I felt much like you probably do now. That's rather a step up in the brutality scale, isn't it?

Yup ... for me it was Whoa! But I thought I'd hear you out and then I will see :o)

...

I do get what you are getting at especially at the excellent daddy allegory (and I have been acting like the Authority Daddy lately for sure!!) but we need to come to what Jesus really meant by "eating and drinking at his table in his kingdom and sitting on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

I'll be back! - while it is still tooo early in the morning for you guys - we are about to go out for dinner. I can't wait to dig into this :o)

Maeghan said...

According to Joel B. Green on Luke 22:28-29:

How can Jesus confer regal authority on persons who have juest demonstrated their failure to embody his message? In v.28, Jesus indeed speaks of his disciples positively, affirming that they have demonstrated their faithfulness.

In Lk 1 and 19, Jesus has been portrayed as king, and in his parabolic teaching he anticipated giving the faithful a share in his regal authority. Now, Jesus rewards the faithful among his disciples positions of leadership, but with limitations: it is a sharing of Jesus' royal authority, not a complete reallocation of it (v.30). The analogy of Jesus' kingship and that of the apostles must await his enthronement until his exaltation.

So CP, I feel, as far as the passage is concerned, it is the eschatological promise to the apostles who remains faithful to God that they will be rulers in God's kingdom.

Back to your thoughts on Authority vs. Judgement, I am not sure if you can segregate the the two so cleanly. A judge has the authority to exercise his powers and a authoritarian has the freedom to judge as he pleases. A good leader needs to be both fair and good in his usage of authority and judgement as shown by your daddy analogy.

Anyway, just my thoughts ;)

DugALug said...

CP,

I'll have to think on this a little more, but right now I'm having a tough time buying into it.

Authority, leadership, and judgement are hand in hand with each other. This is reiterated numerous times thoughout the Bible. Even in reference to God, David, Isiah, Paul, all reffered to God as an Authoroty, judge, leader, counselor, and shepherd, so to make such a delineation seems a bit of a stretch. Without question judgement is mandatory for leadership.

Is the comparison of dad's complete? If I took the ice cream, my dad would have 'lovingly' spanked the tar out of me...once, and I would have never done it again. Is that authority or judgement? I would say it is a bit of both. The better analysis to me would say that leadership calls for proactive versus reactive responses.

This ice cream example isn't good at showing this. How about this: Your 5 year old child is about to walk out on a busy road. The authoritative dad says "Stop now, insert name!". The judgement dad says nothing because he has already told/taught his child not to go out on the road... Which response is more appropriate? The former response is proactive, the latter is reactive. A loving father teacher their child to respond immediately, appropriately, and with a willing heart. In my example, it may have saved the child's life.

I may be missing the point here (again). Sorry I'm stirring the pot again.

God Bless
-Doug

Milly said...

Once I read chocolate orange I stopped thinking of anything else. ;-}

I know that I will need to read this one a few more times. Thanks for making me think.

DugALug said...

CP,

I just read Maeghan's post. I like what she said.

God Bless
Doug

codepoke said...

Maeghan,

Thanks for the work you put into your comments! That's about the highest compliment I could imagine.

it is the eschatological promise
Ah yes. I knew that would pose a problem for a number of people. I don't think that this is an eschatalogical promise, but that is not going to be a popular view. It is the word "throne" thrown in there that throws my position into thorns. I believe I can crawl back out of those thorns, and defend my assumption, but let's leave that for another day.

Let's just assume that I am off my rocker on the eschatology bit. We will state that the disciples judging the church is, in fact, a promise for the future.

What does that really change? Jesus clearly forbids authoritarianism in all 3 synoptics. And yet, Paul goes around tossing people out of churches like drunks on open bar night. How do we reconcile those 2 realities? I think we end up having to redefine authority until it ends up sounding a lot like my idea of judgement.

The church is not a church if no one is defending her from those who would sully her.

It is wrong to nag on about who deserves to be listened to, and to use a title like pastor to demand obedience. It is right, though, to protect the church of the Lord from those who would destroy her out of sheer, callous selfishness. Disciplining them may even be the only thing that might save them.

Point 2:
There is nothing in eternity of which we do not have the foretaste now. So, if we assume that in eternity leaders in the church will judge the church (Israel, the church, are they really different in God's eyes?), then they should be exercising the foretaste of that responsibility now.

Either way, it is not I who draws the distinction. Jesus is the One Who forbids authority and then requires judgement. It is a distinction made for His disciples. I draw a debatable conclusion from it, but the distinction is really there.

We may discuss eschatology in the fall. When we do, I promise to commit the ultimate faux pas, and insist that it really does matter, and is worth getting clear on. :-)

codepoke said...

Doug,

The judgement dad says nothing because he has already told/taught his child not to go out on the road

You certainly have a cold-hearted view of judgement dad.

right now I'm having a tough time buying into it.

Into what? Into Jesus telling His disciples that authority is bad, and that they are not to wield it?

In the end, it all comes down to a redefinition of the word "authority". The word Luke uses is the same word he uses when the centurion describes how he is a man set under authority. It is the same word he uses when he relates the parable of the talents when the faithful servants are given authority over cities. How do we define such a powerful word such that we are able to protect the kingdom of God, but not lord it over her?

I've already given my resolution to the problem.

DugALug said...

CP,

Welcome back to the pits. :) All that peace and hiatus... sorry to stirr it up again. Man, you know how to touch my buttons! Evidently I do the same to you!

You certainly have a cold-hearted view of judgement dad.

Nah, just a pescimistic one. Besides, is it any colder/tainted than your view of the authoritative dad: Authority tends to have a bad case of Verbal Diarrhea. Everything authority does seems to be attended with a stern lecture, and lots of reminders of how important submission is.

I would have to say that is the case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Judgement without authority is worthless, as is authority without judgement.

A redifinition of 'authority' is unnecessary. Maybe the expansion of the your personal definition of the word may be. Personally, I don't see any scriptural problem with associating leadership with judgement AND authority, even with the scriptures you have sighted.

The Luke 22 reference to the gentile rulers is a perfect example of this. They willed authority WITHOUT righteous/godly judgement, hence they were the butt of Jesus' example.

Here is the quote that sustains this. I'm sorry it is a bit long.

Titus 2:9-15 (NIV)

9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.


To reiterate: Vs. 15 sums up that we are to teach using encouragement and rubuke, being given authority to do this. Use judgement to assure that no one despises your authority. Paul didn't explicitly use the word 'judge', but it is clearly implied.

I think this view of authority/judgement/submission is a more biblically consistant aplicaiton than what you are suggesting (at least what I am thinking that you are suggesting).

Into what? Into Jesus telling His disciples that authority is bad, and that they are not to wield it?

So to answer your question: no I am not buying into this judgement trumps authority thing and no Jesus didn't imply this in Luke either. Jesus said that authority without righteous/godly judgement is bad.

God Bless
Doug

Danny Kaye said...

This is a really great post, Codepoke! I may not agree with everything. But you have no idea how much you just helped me and my son in light of our interactions yesterday. You wield the Chocolate Orange very well!

I am not exactly sure which side of the fence I fall on here. I may just sit up on top for a minute and see. (But all the while, throwing my own thoughts into the mix just to keep from getting rusty...;-) )

I think Paul explains his view on authority pretty well in 2 Cor. 10:8,
"For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

The authority is clearly given by the Lord and is available for use by Paul (and others). But it would seem to me that the spirit of its usage should be in the same vein as Eph. 4:29, Romans 15:2, 1 Thes. 5:11, Eph. 4:16...etc.

When I read 1 Thes. 2 with this whole concept in mind, I get the a much larger picture of what Paul's attitude toward authority is. (Even though the word "authority" is not actually in the text, I think it is a fair passage to use in this case.)

And there were, no doubt, times when apostles could have used forceful authority, it seems that the preferred method was not to attack the heart of a person, but to attach to the heart of a person instead, as in Philemon 1:8-9,
"Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, [9] yet I appeal to you on the basis of love. I then, as Paul--an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus..."

This verse seems to go along with your thinking that the older are usually the more wise and that we should be more cautious about young leaders. (I wonder if there wasn't a bit of "bullish-ness" about Paul in his younger years as a disciple that might have contributed to Mark deserting him and Barney.)
When the ICOC fell apart, many f the congregations fared ok, but some of them totally crashed and burned. Why? I'll give you an example; The New York City Church was thriving and had an average attendance of around 9 or 10 thousand weekly. And it all fell apart because the leaders, for the most part, were great-hearted, whole-hearted, but YOUNG disciples. And they did not have any idea how to nurture through tough times. There was no wisdom to go with the zeal. I don't blame them, entirely. They did their best. But they were simply not prepared for the ensuing storm.

By the way: "They know that sometimes it's the still waters that should scare you, and sometimes thick frothing rapids are nothing but a little tantrum."
I LOVED THAT LINE!!!
(notice the three exclamation points, right there? That means I really mean it.)

Danny Kaye said...

Boy! That DK guy can really go on, can't he?

codepoke said...

DugALug,

Yes, I quoted Titus 2 just a couple posts ago, on this very subject of leadership.

Going back to Luke, your statement seems to be a conclusion that you have drawn from a bunch of verses, and not what Jesus said.
Jesus said that authority without righteous/godly judgement is bad.

Jesus said that those who would have authority should instead serve tables and be treated as youths.

You were once the new kid on the block in your chosen profession. How were you treated? In the mechanic profession, the newbie has it ROUGH. This is what Jesus said should happen to leaders in His kingdom.

When was the last time you heard that preached?

Paul's encouragements to Timothy and Titus get a LOT of strong play. I have heard more than enough sermons about submission. Jesus' words to His disciples, however, get ignored away.

codepoke said...

Thanks, DK. I'd rather make a real-world difference than be right any day!

DugALug said...

CP,

Yes, I quoted Titus 2 just a couple posts ago, on this very subject of leadership.

Then why are you trying to refute it now? From what you have written here, you seem to be at odds with Titus 2.

You were once the new kid on the block in your chosen profession. How were you treated? In the mechanic profession, the newbie has it ROUGH. This is what Jesus said should happen to leaders in His kingdom.

Isn't this exactly what Jesus was talking about in Luke 22? That gentile rulers, governed with authority, lacking righteous/godly judgement? In the world, people in authority, posture to protect their position. God says, we all serve each other, so a person in leadership leads by example, serving those who are in their care.

Jesus said that these worldly leadership practices shouldn't happen in God's kingdom, so leaders need to temper authority with judgement, serving each other according to their need.

For the record, I have heard this sermon quite a few times.

God Bless
-Doug

Milly said...

It was great to sit on the fence on this one and watch the bulls run.

Thanks boys:-}

codepoke said...

Well, for Milly's sake, I guess I'll answer yet again. :-)

Then why are you trying to refute it now?

God forbid I would attempt to refute the scripture. I think it is fair to interpret scripture with scripture, though. Throw me a bone here. :-)

I doubt that I have drifted much between my post on Titus and my post here, but if I have, I have drifted toward giving more credence to authority. Don't you think? I mean I wrote a whole post justifying kicking people out of churches. As you think about what I have written, don't you think I have supported authority in fact, even if I have used the term judgement as if opposed to it?

I have attacked the claiming of authority based upon a title and supported judgement based upon truth. You are taking issue with my separation of judgement from authority, but don't you see me advocating exactly what you are advocating? Don't you see me saying leaders in the church need to protect it by exercising judgement?

I attacked authority in this way:
Authority bases his power on his role and good intentions

That line, "good intentions" is important. People who exercise authority wrongly NEVER suspect themselves of anything but the best of intentions. Never trust a man who trusts himself!

I want to repeat. I am trying to interpret a very hard saying of Jesus. He seems to contradict the rest of scripture here. All three synoptics quote Him directly forbidding his disciples to exercise authority. I have to deal with this somehow.

I am trying to let Jesus and Paul have a bit of a dialog here, and see whether I can tease something out that isn't written right on the surface. I am not taking the sword away from Paul. I quote 5 passages in my post that are much harsher than that to Titus. I am trying to figure out how Paul could use that sword and be in agreement with Jesus' apparent commandment to put that sword away.

Paul did use the sword of authority, so yes, therefore he can use it. I agree.

Still, don't you think maybe there's something worth looking at here? Maybe there's something to be added to our understanding of how leaders need to temper authority with judgement, serving each other according to their need.

The verse against which I measure my solution is 1 Cor 4:19&20.
But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

I would suggest that the factions in Corinth had begun throwing their authority around in exactly the way Jesus forbade. I would speculate that they called themselves elders and presbyters and deacons and bishops and the like, and then claimed an authority that belonged to the role. They claimed an authority that their role should have, but that they personally had not earned. Paul comes looking to measure their words and their claims against their spirits. He knows he will find them wanting.

Authority comes from spiritual power which comes from truth, not from a label (even one earned in the finest seminary.) Paul exercised judgement in this verse, and cautioned that he would exercise it with much more force if needed. He did that from true authority, not the paper kind. Paul's authority was based upon reality, not a title.

Another example comes to mind.
Acts 23:1
And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
23:2
And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
23:3
Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law ?
23:4
And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
23:5
Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.


This is to me a clear example of Paul giving deference to a role, but not to true spiritual power. One can be a high priest without any real power, and this high priest exercised authority based solely upon his role. Paul, on the other hand, restrained his authority which was based upon true spiritual power.

The last thing that I have to add is that Jesus really, truly told those who would be the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem that they were to live as youths and as common servants their whole lives. I still believe that is an awfully lofty goal, and not many attain to it. Paul did attain to it, though, and Paul did exercise judgement.

You can call what Paul used "authority" if you'd like. That won't hurt my feelings, but it is at least fair to say that you have to define the term to mean something other than the thing Jesus forbade to his disciples.

codepoke said...

And DK says he can go on. :-D

codepoke said...

BTW, Danny Kaye,

I wonder if there wasn't a bit of "bullish-ness" about Paul in his younger years as a disciple that might have contributed to Mark deserting him and Barney.

Amen!

Just a quick read of Galatians shows a young, harsh man at work. I doubt highly that John Mark was wired for that kind of intensity.

codepoke said...

Maeghan,

I am not sure if you can segregate the the two so cleanly.

The little toss-about with DugALug has really helped me to see where this segregation might lie. Authority and Judgement both being good, when they don't come from "form" over "substance."

What think ye?

DugALug said...

CP,

toss me a bone here

Okay: I love your thought on this stuff and almost all of your posts. Whether I agree or not is arbitrary, it really is cool to ponder.

You can call what Paul used "authority" if you'd like. That won't hurt my feelings, but it is at least fair to say that you have to define the term to mean something other than the thing Jesus forbade to his disciples.

I'm sorry CP, I read in Luke that Jesus forbade authority without good judgement, not the forbiddance of authority itself.

The split here is that I see through scripture that true biblical authority is given in conjunction with biblical judgement... hence through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Worldy leaders have authority but lack the latter.

As for all you fence sitters out there: watch out 'cuz I'm gonna start flinging chips at you! :)

God Bless
-Doug

Milly said...

So ya’all know

The thing to remember is that while sitting on the fence it ain't too many chips that are flying, yep you could get a bit of splatter so ya gotta watch out. The thing to remember is that those thing have horns and you'll need ta keep your legs out a the way. I know, I’ve been grazed.

One more thing if the Cowboy hands ya the rope there could be a bull on the other end. Ya really gotta watch out for the cows cause they get angry when the babies are separated from them. Never stand between a momma and her baby.

DugALug said...

Milly,

I'll take that into consideration....

Here catch! ;)

-Doug

codepoke said...

DugALug,

Whether I agree or not is arbitrary, it really is cool to ponder.

I have profited through this discussion! Thank you.

I read in Luke that Jesus forbade authority without good judgement, not the forbiddance of authority itself.

And I think you are reading too many conclusions back onto the words that are actually there. That's cool.

We all know whose chips we're talking about. I thought I'd share a little of their psychology that I found. Pretty amusing

Milly said...

Doug,

Make sure they ain't still soft.

:-} Dig for worms under them and go fishing instead. I’ve never used my hands to pick one up I’ve kicked a few and it was fun to throw rocks at a dead bloated cow. City folks sure miss out on a lot of stuff . ;-}

DugALug said...

CP,

Nice link. Apparently there is a lot to learn about cows.

When I was a kid, we used to go out to a farm just outside of Worthington (isn't that where you live now? It was a whole lot more rural 25 years ago). Other than my great grandma's place in Kentucky, it is the extent of my farm experience. I was a citified child.

My wife works with horses (she taught and rode dressage) so I've learned a lot in the last 10 years. The most important thing I've learned is horse manure is like smelling roses next to cow's...um... droppings.

And I think you are reading too many conclusions back onto the words that are actually there. That's cool.

ditto.

God Bless
Doug