tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post114829784772190228..comments2024-02-10T21:04:22.822-05:00Comments on The Familyhood Church: Leadership: Leading what?Kevin Knoxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148508366267874532006-05-24T18:06:00.000-04:002006-05-24T18:06:00.000-04:00Wait a second! Did someone say I agree about somet...<I>Wait a second! Did someone say I agree about something?? How did that happen? </I><BR/><BR/>Are the planet's aligning, rumors of war, natural disasters and tribulations occuring?<BR/><BR/>Look to the East, my friends, for our salvation draweth near!<BR/><BR/>~(8(|)<BR/><BR/>Doh!<BR/><BR/>God Bless<BR/>-DougDougALughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13335959723414264767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148506675407286702006-05-24T17:37:00.000-04:002006-05-24T17:37:00.000-04:00Wait a second! Did someone say I agree about some...Wait a second! Did someone say I agree about something?? How did that happen?Andreia Huffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826389170105845825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148506105710688792006-05-24T17:28:00.000-04:002006-05-24T17:28:00.000-04:00Milly, Gettysburg “We almost won” He very flatly s...Milly, <BR/><BR/><I>Gettysburg “We almost won” He very flatly said “But you didn’t did you?” That set the little woman off.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh yeah. I can WAY see that whole scene going down. I bet he used a food tester for a little while.Kevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148506032500332462006-05-24T17:27:00.000-04:002006-05-24T17:27:00.000-04:00DugALug,LOL! Great comment. I laughed and agreed t...DugALug,<BR/><BR/>LOL! Great comment. I laughed and agreed the whole way through. :-)<BR/><BR/>The looser the definition of hierarchy, the more I agree with it, and the more I agree with you. As you loosened my definition, and forced me to acknowledge your loosening as accurate, I agreed with more and more of your statements. <BR/><BR/>Please read all my previous comments as saying "rigid hierarchy" wherever I say "hierarchy."<BR/><BR/>I have to take special note of the fact that you and Andreia both agree with me that a trained senior is the best leader. It's almost like agreeing with each other. ;-D <BR/><BR/>jkKevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148502434698769372006-05-24T16:27:00.000-04:002006-05-24T16:27:00.000-04:00Codepoke,Man I can ruffle feathers! I'm sorry I on...Codepoke,<BR/><BR/>Man I can ruffle feathers! <BR/><BR/>I'm sorry I only took the top definition for <I>hierarchy</I> from www.Dictionary.com: I didn't consult the far more respectable wikipedia. (I wonder if my chuckle is audible in my writing).<BR/><BR/><BR/>To be fair here is the complete definition:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hiearchy" REL="nofollow">Hierarcy Def</A><BR/><BR/><I>A body of persons having authority. <BR/><BR/>Categorization of a group of people according to ability or status. The group so categorized. <BR/><BR/>A series in which each element is graded or ranked: put honesty first in her hierarchy of values. <BR/><BR/>A body of clergy organized into successive ranks or grades with each level subordinate to the one above. <BR/><BR/>Religious rule by a group of ranked clergy. <BR/><BR/>One of the divisions of angels. <BR/></I><BR/><BR/>I went to the Mariam-webster dictionary and it had an almost identical set of definitions. <BR/><BR/>I went to the wiki, and here was the quote two paragraphs down from what you cited:<BR/><BR/><I>A hierarchy can link entities either directly or indirectly, and either vertically or horizontally. The only direct links in a hierarchy are to one's immediate superior, or to one of one's subordinates. However, indirect links can extend "vertically" upwards or downwards via multiple links in the same direction. All parts of the hierarchy which are not vertically linked to one another can nevertheless be "horizontally" linked by travelling up the hierarchy to find a common direct or indirect superior, and then down again. This is akin to two co-workers, neither of whom is the other's boss, but both of whose chains of command will eventually meet.</I><BR/><BR/>This sounds a lot more reasonable and in line with a more globally respected source, like Webster. <BR/><BR/>Allow me to put in Doug-Speek and apply to christian leadership: God is on top and there are parallel chains of command streaming from him. Something similar is also quoted in this wiki too.<BR/><BR/><I>Either way, "submit" and "command" do not imply hierarchy in accord with the Wikipedia definition. Even after the divorce, my children submit to me and to my wife. Hierarchy is broken. </I><BR/><BR/>I beg to differ, as once again quoted in the wiki you sited.<BR/><BR/><I>Many human organizations, such as businesses, churches, armies and political movements are hierarchical organizations, at least officially; commonly superiors, called "bosses", have more power than their subordinates. <B>Thus the relationship defining this hierarchy is "commands" or "has power over"</B>. (Some analysts question whether power "really" works as the traditional organizational chart indicates, however.) See also chain of command.</I><BR/><BR/>I would be remiss (aka plagarizing) not to add the link: <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy" REL="nofollow">Wiki Heirarchy</A><BR/><BR/><I>My ex commands and I command, and we are both obeyed. </I><BR/><BR/>This too is consistant with my definition of the word. Exodus 20 does not say 'children obey your mom". This implies that children are subordinate to both parents. There is a further implication here: that parents should answer to God. I know this isn't exactly the case with your ex, but to your children, it may as well be.<BR/><BR/><I>Hierarchy=Rigid; Rigid=Bad</I><BR/><BR/>This is just bogus on both parts. God is rigid, unshakeable, and never-changing. Can I imply from your statement that He is 'bad' too? <BR/><BR/>Hierarcy is 'structured' not necesarily 'rigid'. As a coder, you probably experienced the difference between structured and rigidity:<BR/><BR/> C/C++ Code is structured.<BR/><BR/> COBOL is rigid.<BR/><BR/>In this case rigid is bad.(I chuckle).<BR/><BR/>Again, your earlier points are fine if you only see a hierarchy as a rigid formation, like a pyramid.<BR/><BR/>I also really like your thoughts comparing Rigidity and Firmness: they are really eloquent.<BR/><BR/><B>Comments concerning elderly ruling/leading.</B><BR/><BR/>There is no replacement for wisdom and hands-on experience. The Bible is clear that gray hair is an 'earned' crown, and as such, should be garnered with respect.<BR/><BR/>While I am a proponent of teaching, training, and instruction. There is little to compare with hands-on, hard-knocks, and reality.<BR/><BR/>I remember taking a class on witnessing. It all sounded great and easy in class, but when we went out and actually witnessed... oh boy! What a difference! Over time it gets easier. All training really did was give you a nice set of tools, where with experience, we learned to use them properly.<BR/><BR/>Still, there are times when age may not be the appropriate leader. If a church had an outreach to surfers, it will be hard for an un-churched teen from Daytona to relate to a 70 year-old blue-head from Akron. <BR/><BR/>Sometimes leadership is thrust upon us, whether we want it or not.<BR/><BR/>Also concerning hierarchy. Many pastors at our church have sat and entered worship with me as a worship leader (thankfully the Word says make a 'joyful noise', and doesn't say 'sing well'), only for me to turn around and sit and glean from their wisdom concerning a message. The leadership of a church is based on skill-sets.<BR/><BR/>I hope this makes sense.<BR/><BR/>God Bless<BR/>DougDougALughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13335959723414264767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148501897144952402006-05-24T16:18:00.000-04:002006-05-24T16:18:00.000-04:00Okay. We agree. I still prefer a 60 year old man W...Okay. We agree. I still prefer a 60 year old man WITH training.<BR/><BR/>I used to think that by virtue of advanced age, someone has achieved wisdom. Is it more likely? Sure, Ill give you that one. But I have known elderly folks who are either unable or unwilling to empathize or connect with the younger people in the congregation. Im thinking that Im sounding like a broken record. <BR/><BR/>I dont think leadership is about issuing orders and hierarchies. It is about creating a vision for people beyond what they can see now. Jesus was the perfect example. When the seas were storming he saw something else. <BR/><BR/>Likewise, when a couple is in the midst of marital problems leaders can see through the fog. Good leaders can draw a clear picture of the benefits of bending to the will of the other spouse and/or the consequences for not. <BR/><BR/>Good leaders have empathy for people where they are at the moment. Again, I think of Jesus with the woman at the well. Sometimes I think we pick church leaders who have a lot of head knowledge (and business savvy, although why, I dont understand) and we miss this critical heart element of leadership. <BR/><BR/>Leadership to me is about service. Are you willing to empathize, nuture and encourage those around you in a manner like Christ? Jesus never asked his disciples to do anything he was unwilling to do, even baptism. I think that serves as an excellent lesson in servant-leadership and when we apply that model to the structure of the church (committees, elders and the like), it takes on a completely different look.Andreia Huffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826389170105845825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148497119654182032006-05-24T14:58:00.000-04:002006-05-24T14:58:00.000-04:00Codepoke,I would never have believed this still ma...Codepoke,<BR/><BR/>I would never have believed this still mattered, except I lived in the South for 10 years. WOW does it still matter! <BR/><BR/><BR/>He loves get’n um riled up. It’s an odd game. Then again he didn’t grow up with them. He and my mom loved sparring. She once said after being at Gettysburg “We almost won” He very flatly said “But you didn’t did you?” That set the little woman off. My grandmother was from a wealthy Tennessee up bringing. So the Southern was the more proper one. The rebel that I am.<BR/> ;-}.I married a Yankee Catholic.Millyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08676326805474564427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148491590581394672006-05-24T13:26:00.000-04:002006-05-24T13:26:00.000-04:00Andreia,Your suggestion makes me think. I am advoc...Andreia,<BR/><BR/>Your suggestion makes me think. <BR/><BR/>I am advocating old people be the church leadership. You suggest that leaders be trained. I am implying that life will train them better than leadership training - that a 60 year old man without training is a better leader than a 30 year old man with it. <BR/><BR/>I have taken training like Mr. Maxwell's (and while I don't know him, you'll get no stones thrown by me over the concept!) and it was VERY helpful to me. It's thanks to that training that I am able cultivate friendships now. In my first bid to be a church leader all I won was the command that I read "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie - wait for it --- twice. <BR/><BR/>No kidding.<BR/><BR/>I was commanded to read it twice, and not even think about it again until I was living that stuff out. Two or three more courses later, and people don't run when I approach them any more. It's a good thing. <BR/><BR/>So, I am for the idea. I would like to see men taking these kinds of courses and reading these kinds of books when they are young. Then when they are old, they won't be experimenting. <BR/><BR/>Does that work for you?Kevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148491244905969412006-05-24T13:20:00.001-04:002006-05-24T13:20:00.001-04:00Milly, North vs South stay Low honey! Duck and wea...Milly, <BR/><BR/><I>North vs South stay Low honey! Duck and weave! </I><BR/><BR/>I would never have believed this still mattered, except I lived in the South for 10 years. WOW does it still matter!Kevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148491203426865902006-05-24T13:20:00.000-04:002006-05-24T13:20:00.000-04:00Maeghan,I like all your answers. Thank you. How ca...Maeghan,<BR/><BR/>I like all your answers. Thank you. <BR/><BR/><I>How can you know a leader?<BR/>Cool but firm.<BR/>Firm but loving.<BR/>Loving but right.</I><BR/><BR/>Very nice. I like that a lot. <BR/><BR/><I>How many leaders does our church of 200 need?<BR/>If we are talking about pastors, I think 1:40 would be a good ratio. For lay-leaders, it would depend on the ministries but I think as a rule of thumb, an effective leader should have about not more than 10-12 under his wings.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree. I appreciate that you answered the question directly, too. I think your numbers make a lot of sense.Kevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148490988096486242006-05-24T13:16:00.000-04:002006-05-24T13:16:00.000-04:00DugALug,I think your textbook definition of hierar...DugALug,<BR/><BR/>I think your textbook definition of hierarchy is pretty insubstantial. I would offer up Wikipedia's<BR/><BR/><I>A hierarchy (in Greek: Ιεραρχία, it is derived from ιερός-hieros, sacred, and άρχω-arkho, rule) is a system of ranking and organizing things or people, where each element of the system (except for the top element) is subordinate to a single other element.</I><BR/><BR/>Hierarchy = rigid. I agree, but I go further to say, rigid = bad. Firm = good, but rigid = bad. <BR/><BR/>So, what makes you able to know firm from rigid? Get really old, and make some mistakes along the way by being too firm and too rigid. If you get there, and your heart is still hospitable, then I think you should judge in the church. <BR/><BR/>About submission and authority: I would be remiss if I did not admit right up front that while I believe in submission and authority there's probably a whole can of worms separating my definition of those words from yours. <BR/><BR/>Either way, "submit" and "command" do not imply hierarchy in accord with the Wikipedia definition. Even after the divorce, my children submit to me and to my wife. Hierarchy is broken. <BR/><BR/>My ex commands and I command, and we are both obeyed. <BR/><BR/>In a hierarchy, a (still married) husband should only issue orders to his wife, and she should forward them to the children. The degree to which a church or family attempts to implement such a plan is the degree to which love is broken.Kevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148487861930729122006-05-24T12:24:00.000-04:002006-05-24T12:24:00.000-04:00okay 10 minutes until the next event. I hope no on...okay 10 minutes until the next event. <BR/><BR/>I hope no one thinks it heretical but John Maxwell has excellent leadership training and for what it is worth I would recommend his books to anyone who wants to study leadership. <BR/><BR/>The thing that has always bothered me about the church I grew up in is that there is no prescribed training for those that would be leaders. It seems against the wisdom of God to throw men, as it were, into the pit without some real-life practical training. Prov 3:5 comes to mind as well as 9:9. <BR/><BR/>Running out the door now...Andreia Huffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826389170105845825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148486107138133192006-05-24T11:55:00.000-04:002006-05-24T11:55:00.000-04:00I grew up in a matriarch as I’ll bet most families...I grew up in a matriarch as I’ll bet most families with Southern women did. Don’t mess with the women. “Yes dear” is something my husband learned very quickly. He’s from Pennsylvania. North vs South stay Low honey! Duck and weave!Millyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08676326805474564427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148486015970503702006-05-24T11:53:00.000-04:002006-05-24T11:53:00.000-04:006 fully loaded questions ;)Which of these battle f...6 fully loaded questions ;)<BR/><BR/>Which of these battle fronts is most important?<BR/>Those who are losing their faith and trust in God. There are problems that strengthen souls but when a soul has lost its bearings, it is most important to lead them back.<BR/><BR/>Which of these battle fronts does a seminary education prepare a man to handle well?<BR/>At least over here the seminaries cover the spiritual, theological and doctrinal. I am not too sure about the others.<BR/><BR/>What training method would best prepare a leader to handle all of these things?<BR/>Being involved in training in my course of work, most of the time method remains a method. What works is the heart: a heart first for God and then for the people.<BR/><BR/>What training method would best teach a leader when not to react?<BR/>This is hard to say. I won't say that a training method would achieve it. I believe a close relationship with God in prayer and his Word would set a good foundation in having the wisdom when to act and when not to.<BR/><BR/> <BR/>How can you know a leader?<BR/>Cool but firm.<BR/>Firm but loving.<BR/>Loving but right.<BR/><BR/>How many leaders does our church of 200 need?<BR/>If we are talking about pastors, I think 1:40 would be a good ratio. For lay-leaders, it would depend on the ministries but I think as a rule of thumb, an effective leader should have about not more than 10-12 under his wings.pearliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17142595255771626179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148483243310924232006-05-24T11:07:00.000-04:002006-05-24T11:07:00.000-04:00Codepoke,Point 3: Hierarchy may be more masculine ...Codepoke,<BR/><BR/><I>Point 3: Hierarchy may be more masculine than roundedly human. No hard data on this, just an impression that I have to throw out.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't about your house growing up, but in our house, the rule was if my mom wasn't happy then no one was. So much for the 'masculinty' of hierarchy... rofl.<BR/><BR/>God Bless<BR/>DougDougALughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13335959723414264767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148479221841956542006-05-24T10:00:00.000-04:002006-05-24T10:00:00.000-04:00Codepoke,Alright, I see where you are going with t...Codepoke,<BR/><BR/>Alright, I see where you are going with this. Again we are talking about a definition of terms. Your points are really great for a rigid, miltary-esque hierarchy. To me, that even that comes down to who do you think is on top? If God is on top, then much of the chains of command are parallel. <BR/><BR/>Paul never shied away from using military parallels in his analogies. Jesus, himself, lauded the centurian for his faith and his understanding and aplication of authority.<BR/><BR/>To me, the word 'submit' and 'authority' imply heirarchy. You can call it a tribe or a military regiment, (or a McDonald's franchise for that matter). In the end, someone is placed as an authority above others and is given a unique set of responsibilities. You might squirm at this, but someone, or some body of someones, ultimately represent your 'tribe' when it comes to matters of money, time, and resource distribution. <BR/><BR/>Even in a tribe there is a cheif, so again, I think that any organization that distributes responsibility has an inherent hierarchy. <BR/><BR/>The textbook definition of hierarchy is <I>A body of persons having authority</I><BR/><BR/>I like this definition because of the use of the word 'body'. This is one of the principals we used in reshaping our church's goverment: we recognize God as our head and we use a body of elders to better hear what God (our head) is saying to us.<BR/><BR/>All of this to say that you are right, that it all comes down to submission and authority no matter what it is called.<BR/><BR/>God Bless<BR/>DougDougALughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13335959723414264767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148477601462770182006-05-24T09:33:00.000-04:002006-05-24T09:33:00.000-04:00God bless you CodePoke for Point 3! I hope I get a...God bless you CodePoke for Point 3! <BR/><BR/>I hope I get another second today after last day of school stuff to comment more!Andreia Huffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826389170105845825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148472311569166552006-05-24T08:05:00.000-04:002006-05-24T08:05:00.000-04:00DugALug,Would you say that you submit to the teach...DugALug,<BR/><BR/><I>Would you say that you submit to the teachings of Calvin, Wessley or Luther? How about Paul, John, or Luke?</I><BR/><BR/>Hmmm. Submit to teachings? I submit to Truth. <BR/><BR/>Let me try this approach.<BR/><BR/>In a family you have a child, father, and grandfather. The father has authority over the child, and the grandfather has authority over both the father and child. <BR/><BR/>I believe in authority and submission. <BR/><BR/>Point 1: In a hierarchy the child cannot approach the grandfather. The child must go through the father to get to the grandfather. That is called chain of command, and breaking it is punishable by something. <BR/><BR/>Point 2: In a complex hierarchy, you cannot go to someone else's grandfather. Only your own has authority over you. My uncles and great uncles would be greatly removed from me in a hierarchy. It is helpful to think of a tribe in this regard, rather than a simple extended family. And there is reason to believe that the church should be tribal in nature, rather than corporational. <BR/><BR/>Point 3: Hierarchy may be more masculine than roundedly human. No hard data on this, just an impression that I have to throw out.Kevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148442928829865972006-05-23T23:55:00.000-04:002006-05-23T23:55:00.000-04:00Andreia was the one who stepped up to the plate. M...Andreia was the one who stepped up to the plate. My question is I wonder how many people dropped that ball before she grabbed that gauntlet? Thank goodness she did and I hope it wasn't too late. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps God gave Andreia the ball for a reason. <BR/><BR/>Here is the voice of the Milly **Several years ago I was in a class that was for women who’s husbands didn’t attend church with them (Most churches need this for spouses I took over leading at one point) We lead the class very informally if we needed to address a need of one of the ladies we did. So we laughed, cried, prayed, and learned. We cared about and for each other. One of the ladies was going through a break up. It was hard for her. It’s hard enough to think of him seeing someone else but to find that it was a man was devastating. One morning while talking a lady that was a friend to her said that she had been so upset about the fact that no one had spoken to her she hadn’t heard from us. I was more than shocked because these women weren’t like that. I had called several times, written notes and invited her to meet me somewhere so that our children could play. Other women were stunned as well because they to had done the same thing. Was it that no one had or was she expecting someone else? <BR/><BR/>We sometimes put too high of expectations on those around us. When we are in pain we can’t see what’s in front of us. I’ve done it. I was crying in a class one Wednesday night, as I always did on Wednesday nights, my mom would have call me by then so the pain of not hearing her voice, So I was crying as usual, a shepherd asked if he could help. I said no thank you and left. He follow and pressed for information. He then told me that I needed to move on. I still can’t believe it. Is it my pain that angered me. Yes. I wanted him to be kinder. He isn’t that kind of man. He isn’t a shepherd any longer. Point is that God sends who we need. We need to learn to focus on them not the move on folks.Millyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08676326805474564427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148438829104801312006-05-23T22:47:00.000-04:002006-05-23T22:47:00.000-04:00Codepoke,We can do better than emulating the McDon...Codepoke,<BR/><BR/><I>We can do better than emulating the McDonald's franchise scheme.</I><BR/><BR/>Would Ronnald McDonald be considered the pope of that organization? I am just wondering. How about the Hamburglar? <BR/><BR/>Out of curiosity, when it comes to Christianity, do you submit yourself to any earthly authority? I know am 'poking' this point a little, but I want to see where this goes.<BR/><BR/>Would you say that you submit to the teachings of Calvin, Wessley or Luther? How about Paul, John, or Luke?<BR/><BR/>If you answer 'yes' to any of this, then you have acknowledged that there is a heirarchy. It comes down to the 'First among equals' principal.<BR/><BR/>Going back to what you have inferred in your last 4-part series, I am guessing that the heirarchy failed miserably in your past church. <BR/><BR/>Here is the truth: everything man puts his hand to is, by definition corrupt. Organizations and their participants are trapped by the fact that humans designed them. Now that this is out of the way, can you build a church that avoids puting a single man at the top? <BR/><BR/>Our church, for instance, has a government comprised of a group of elders, of which the head pastor is one of the Elders. It really does work and it works well. <BR/><BR/>Our previous pastor stepped down unexpectedly and left our church in a matter of 4 days. The church continued to function, if not thrive for the next 4 months while we searched for a replacement. This is simply amazing to me. <BR/><BR/>Still in saying all of this, my trust is not in men, it is in God and he doesn't disapoint. I too am wary of any 'heirarchy' especially Christian ones.<BR/><BR/>God Bless<BR/>DougDougALughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13335959723414264767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148435067668647102006-05-23T21:44:00.000-04:002006-05-23T21:44:00.000-04:00You are loving this aren’t ya Cowboy? Milly smiles...<I>You are loving this aren’t ya Cowboy? Milly smiles at the thought of you now brain storming</I><BR/><BR/>So VERY right, Milly. :-D<BR/><BR/><I>Every garden needs a gardener. (Millyism for the book)</I><BR/><BR/>Hmmm. You may need to remind me if the day ever comes. :-) Your mysterious powers over Oprah aside, I have a terrible memory for things that go in books. <BR/><BR/><I>I couldn’t just direct the LTC drama I ended up writhing it, making props, and caring for the young people. They were in my charge. That’s the reality of it.</I><BR/><BR/>A doff of the cap to the Millster!<BR/><BR/>Amen, sister.Kevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148434904798713032006-05-23T21:41:00.000-04:002006-05-23T21:41:00.000-04:00DugALug,I would also question this statement since...DugALug,<BR/><BR/><I>I would also question this statement since you identify yourself as a leader</I><BR/><BR/>:-)<BR/><BR/>Brother, I was identified at work as a leader - there is a difference. <BR/><BR/>Nobody has ever identified me in the church as a leader. A pain in numerous parts of the anatomy, but never a leader in the church. <BR/><BR/><I>if done with thought, love, and with trustworthy folks, they are quite palletable. Yummy even! ;)</I><BR/><BR/>Ah, but what done by spiritual people is not yummy? <BR/><BR/>We can do better than emulating the McDonald's franchise scheme. <BR/><BR/>Some day, some time, I am going to have time to post the next in the series!Kevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148427488587783692006-05-23T19:38:00.000-04:002006-05-23T19:38:00.000-04:00From what I can gather from the past attempts. I t...From what I can gather from the past attempts. I think that it’s a very good idea BTW. We divided people according to addresses. So those who live around you are in your group. We have tried this twice. Once we were to all gathered together in our address groups. Easier for a smaller church. This way we could also meet each other. When they needed food taken for a funeral or brought for someone who was ill you were called and asked so you were taking care of you neighbor so to speak. (You are loving this aren’t ya Cowboy? Milly smiles at the thought of you now brain storming) <BR/><BR/>I ‘m not sure why it stopped. It could be that it wasn’t kept well. Every garden needs a gardener. (Millyism for the book) <BR/><BR/>The shepherd was the same premises as the other. You are assigned to a group of people to care for in you area. You’ll call them about once a month and keep an eye on prayer requests. We were to be the callers then if we felt that someone was in need we could call our assigned shepherd so that he could help. We knew that this would be a dedication on our part. That’s a huge issue in volunteer work some don’t grasp how hard and the amount of time it takes. It wasn’t going to be just calling as he said and we knew it. People who reach out for you need you they don’t just need a phone call then a pass off. They would want to see us. It could be time consuming if you had someone who needed you. I cared for a dying neighbor by picking up her mail from her mail box and taking it to he door. My husband helped her with yard work. My responsibilities to her grew as she became worse. People need to know that with leadership comes responsibilities. I couldn’t just direct the LTC drama I ended up writhing it, making props, and caring for the young people. They were in my charge. That’s the reality of it.<BR/><BR/>As for pew sitters there are various reasons for them. They may need to get acclimated, a new church, new people, and so on. They could be coming from a bad experience in the last church. They might be shy. No one asked so they don’t. They signed up no one called. And so on. I was a pew sitter but I can’t keep my mouth shut and my son was so darn sweet that he wasn’t unnoticed. God got me off the pew when the time came as He did you. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure that I could ramble on but the kids are making me crazy. I should feed them. <BR/><BR/>Fellow ex-pew sitter,<BR/>MillyMillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08676326805474564427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148419837783214812006-05-23T17:30:00.000-04:002006-05-23T17:30:00.000-04:00Codepoke,Will you be surprised when I say I am aga...Codepoke,<BR/><BR/><I>Will you be surprised when I say I am against hierarchy, too.</I><BR/><BR/>Not in the least, but I think I can make a pretty great case that it is very biblical. I would also question this statement since you identify yourself as a leader: you must believe in some form of heirarchy... even if it is a heirarchy of one.<BR/><BR/>Granted, they invite corruption, and are slow to respond to the move of the Holy Spirit, but if done with thought, love, and with trustworthy folks, they are quite palletable. Yummy even! ;)<BR/><BR/>God Bless<BR/>DougDougALughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13335959723414264767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20104292.post-1148419366844073862006-05-23T17:22:00.000-04:002006-05-23T17:22:00.000-04:00Milly,More details on the neighborhood attempt wou...Milly,<BR/><BR/>More details on the neighborhood attempt would be of great interest to me. Thanks for mentioning it. <BR/><BR/>Pew sitters are a problem for me. I always forget they exist, but for the opposite reason as most. I was a pew sitter who desparately wanted to be involved in something meaningful, but didn't know how to start. I always assume that the pew sitter is frustrated with their lot in life, so I always treat them that way.Kevin Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16788817477327510023noreply@blogger.com